Why true community is lost on the church

This is a response to a post by GraceShaker who blogs here on the holy wild, I have deleted some of my personal comments that I put in my post to him:

There has been a huge push with the existing the existing church body to become more “relevant” to the current culture.  These relevancies include creating small groups that are more oriented to “authentic” community.  In this push we are seeing church’s using the word “authentic” but not really understanding what that means.  Here is a reason I think the current Church has issues with that:

First reasons I believe authentic community is lost on the church:

1. The emphasis is on the ever after.

Most of the entire church emphasis is on sin, the consequences of sin, and how that consequence relates to the afterlife. Since moving to the NorthWest my wife and I have been to many many repackaged Modern Church’s who still preach this message, but have cooler people playing. This message is: You sin. That separates you from God and Heaven. You need Jesus to get back to God and Heaven otherwise your Going to Hell. There is very little emphasis on transformation other than that initial “Holy Spirit” covering of sin. This creates the idea that when we are “spritually” cleaned we therefore we need not “dwell” on that sin or talk about that sin. The “trasnformation” is instant, and now we wait for heaven. Though there is not one shred of Biblical Evidence this is the way that it works (from Peter’s betrayals with Jesus and in acts, to the very reason Paul wrote so many letters telling them to stop their silly sinning), this is the predominant belief. We are saved Hell and  to get to heaven. 

 2. Lone Wolf Christianity

There is the idea that we should be cleaned completely of past sin when we become a Christ. If you watched porn you don’t do it anymore. This is a direct result of a really good thing. Many people who were damaging themselves and others in very public and awful ways DO have an instant transformation out of that sin. This instant stop of that sin gives in to the belief that all I need is Jesus and the Bible and I will be sinless. However, in almost every case I have seen of drug addicts, sex addicts, ect that do not have some sort of community they actually begin to foster the sin that originally caused that problem. I.E. Guilt, shame, or Self centeredness. People who experience the first two issues normally leave such church’s, or live in a life of lies because they go back to those things. Shame and Guilt rarely lead one to continue in a “saved” state because those issues are self-inflicted, and need others to “figure out” a way out of that shame. The Second Group of people (Self centeredness) become leaders in the church and fosters the first problem of Salvation from Hell. The idea of saved from hell is actually an ego centric belief system. That is, I am the cause and my belief in Jesus is the cure. This is egocentric because both things are about me. I caused my separation from God, I get to be saved, I get to go to heaven, I get saved from hell because I accepted Jesus in my heart. Though that is all true (in a sense) the emphasis is not on what God is doing, but what I did and what God did. It’s all past and future and not in the present. What I feel happens is since the main people in the church believe they are now “saved” and there is no Journey involved it fosters a “hiding” of sins those people do not do, and more egocentricism for people who can live by the things that are “worldly” but completely ignore the things that they do now that are still sin.

3. The idea that true Biblical reading requires no interpretation of Scripture

Most people who argue against any point that you bring up about how Jesus works, about the need for community, and really any contrary point to their belief system they state that interpretation is not needed it’s right there. Though you and I know that’s the Logical Fallacy known as appeal to authority, this is one the main points people say. You are interpreting but I am just reading it like it is. This is also egocentric because it assumes an amount of understanding that others do not have. You just don’t understand, but I do. This is an idealism that is the worst to break because it hinges on the idea that everyone else is wrong but I am right. Again, same egocentricism that caused all the ones after it.

I think that is one post in itself. Maybe I should come back talk about the others.

Sin Starts with Pride.

So after reading Rob Bells book I finally have seen a systematic gathering of scripture for the belief that God is bigger than the Christian Church. In this reading I have also become utterly frustrated with feeling now that I actually have to defend that Belief, because now it’s been revealed to the general public of the Christian Community that the Reformational God (IE salvation from hell Jesus) is utterly,  unequivocally, and atomically small.   That an emphasis on the salvation from hell and that Christ saved us from eternal burning has diminished the Gospel in such a way, that most Christians in these United States believe that  a particular Political group is more “Christian” than the other.   Like Politics could EVER be Christian.

We live in a fallen state.  A fallen world.  A world of SO many hells, so much Destruction, so much hate, so many lies, so much pain that how can we say hell and torment are not here, right now, on this planet. Disease, Catastrophic events In fact, something like 50% of the worlds population lives without clean water? Are you kidding? Water?  Try not drinking any water for a few, days tell me what you call that.

Transversely, if you have ever felt the saving Grace of Christ, the fire of believing with every bit of your being that God’s love covers all of the sins of the past, covers those sins you are doing at this moment, and every sin from here till the ever after, then you know that heaven makes it’s place here too.   If you have ever been able to breath that Grace to others and seen that transformation, you know that heaven makes it’s place here.

Why does it matter so much to some people whether Hell exists, or Heaven is where Christians go?  I actually probably, might believe in a hell, but is Jesus inviting us to Heaven after we die, or a heaven right here?

What is the emphasis?  What was the suffering that Jesus contemporaries where experiencing?  Paul’s? Where they living in houses with Air conditioning?

The problem isn’t that Hell doesn’t or does exist or what happens when we die, but that we, in the western world know very little of daily suffering, especially Christians.  We have sequestered ourselves into a world of rules and expectations. Don’t curse, drink or smoke, and oh lord don’t talk about sex. But this world is not the one that Jesus and Paul are speaking to. That was to an oppressed world.  And it that world the idea of a coming Jesus,  and a world without hell was here and now.

Here and Now. That is the importance of Rob Bell’s book. God is looking for people to enter his Kingdom, not when they die, but here and now. In your living room.  As you go to work.  As you breath every breath.  His Gospel, His good news, is here.

And God is waiting, and he will wait til the end of days, and far beyond.

I am living this little Essay on this fine tune:

Everything you have ever believed about the Holy Scriptures, whether your a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Deist and everything in between, it is utterly and always based on an interpretation.    If we can start here, we can get the point of Robs book.  That the conversation hasn’t ended. No one gets to claim they know all the answers. That includes you.

Supply Side, please, no Sunny Side.

So instead of responding on Facebook this is a much better medium for debate that links to my facebook.  If people get confused I will write the original information here as well.

So Shannon I am going to break this down a little bit and let you know how I feel about these things.

I understan…d the economic model ideology of the wealthy stimulating the economy and creating jobs, etc., yet 1% of our population holds the wealth and capitalism has recirculated this wealth at the top. Out sourcing jobs and hiring illegal immigrants are sending the revenue to other countries. The middle class has become HUGE…with a widening gap between the middle and the upper classes. People don’t want to pay more for produce or products, but the conundrum is that we are paying the difference in our economy through inflation, and other means.

Why is who has the wealth in this country important?

Isn’t over all wealth what is important?  The average wealth?

what makes that the top 1% has a percentage of wealth an answer to the idea of how to actually get out of a recession or a depression?

Rich people giving undocumented workers undocumented work is undocumented. So that’s just a lament.  Wining about something that may or may not being happening will get you everywhere in politics.

As far as outsourcing overseas, what would cause them to do that?

The problem isn’t that the top 1% have 37 percent of the wealth, but that 25% own 87% (2009) of the wealth which includes much of the upper middle class.

A large middle class and a rich rich should not be an issue, if the rich are disseminating that wealth.  Remember if a person owns 56% of Microsoft, that is included in their net wealth.  That means the top 1% will ALWAYS have a huge chunk of wealth because they will always own the companies that we work for.  This is the way that capitalism works.

Either they own them or the government owns them.    What is interesting though is the to 1% don’t really pay the taxes, those taxes get disiminated into the products they produce.

For example, here in Oregon Phil Knight the owner of Nike is paying his taxes and this year you (because your now supreme leader), decide to change his tax percent from 25% of his income to 35%.  Would it surprise you if Nike shoes went up 10%?

Do you think he is going to change his lifestyle?  Taking Helicopters to Duck games?  I don’t think so.   What your doing is taking away money from the supply side of things.

Now lets say that 10% is 14 Billion.  Tell me, what will the government do to help the guy that makes 15, 000 a year and can’t afford rent?  How much of that will be spent on that actual person?

Socialism is flawed in that you’re correct that it doesn’t accommodate greed, and instead of some utopian altruistic fair-share ant colony you wind up with cheap vodka and mile-long lines for food. So, a marriage of socialism and capitalism seem the way to go.

Which is what we have had since the new deal.  I agree, no federal intervention lead to the great depression, and to much kept us in it.  There is a medium there, I think we just disagree on the particulars.

I am not concerned about a religious coup de e’tat because of our Constitution and the Establishment Clause, that’s another reason it’s so important to have a definitive separation of church and state.

The constitution is just paper.  Germany had a constitution too, but Hilter found a way to get them to suspend civil liberties.

And no, credentials certainly don’t make someone right, but he is an expert in his field, regardless of the prize, and I would hope that his opinion is based on evidence, logic and data. That’s why I would be more likely to trust him over the hyperbole of most people.

Hmm.  Hope?  I want to know what he basis his opinion on.  Where is his evidence.

I’m not a MM fan, btw, he’s a little too scare-mongery for me, and I don’t know how much fact he presents.

I was just trying to think of the craziest people on both sides.  Rush is the same way for me.  He uses to much Hyperbole.  But that’s how they both got famous. Means little.

Trickle down isn’t actually an economic theory, it’s a political renaming of supply side theory (and a simplification at best) which was an answer to Keynesian theory that was predominant between the 40′s til the 70′s. Whats funny though is Keynesian actually calls for a mix of systems not just stimulus from the government side. 

Supply side and Classical base the idea on supply is much more important then consumption.  That is, give more money to the groups who provide supply, and the price of supply goes down and jobs get created as well as goods cost less (if rich people and companies pay less taxes this would be included).

Keynesian, on the other hand, is the main idea with in government stimulus of the economy, however, Even Keynesian  calls for a much larger private sector intervention then government intervention. Most proponents of supply side state that no government intervention is needed but that’s not good economic policy.   All you have to do is point to the great depression:

“Keynes argued that the solution to the Great Depression was to stimulate the economy (“inducement to invest”) through some combination of two approaches: a reduction in interest rates and government investment in infrastructure. Investment by government injects income, which results in more spending in the general economy, which in turn stimulates more production and investment involving still more income and spending and so forth. The initial stimulation starts a cascade of events, whose total increase in economic activity is a multiple of the original investment.”  Blinder, Alan S. (2002). “Keynesian Economics”. The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html. Retrieved 2008-04-09

Keynesian however, was an answer to the policy of no government intervention and many believe was such a flop to the other side, that it extended the great depression and is the main reason that the US did not keep up with Europe (mainly Germany) in it’s economic recovery.

The problem is Keynesian never got to run it’s course because of WWII which was actually government money being injected into our war machine (held by the private sector) and that caused our recovery.   Goverment spending was 123% of the GDP at that time but what it did was get people back to work.  Government money was interjected into private held companies.

Also, you have to understand that Keynesian was actually an answer to excessive saving.   During the years before depression as the decline of the stock market and the bond market decline, people begin hoarding money because they where afraid.  We are not talking in savings accounts either, but in pillow cases. Remeber this mostly is the rich that did this because they mostly control economic growth Keynesian argued (and rightfully so)  that government didn’t do anything to stop this money not being used in the market is the reason that government controls interest rates.  As saving increases (or the stock market declines)  the government is supposed to lower interest rates to entice investment.

That part worked, as the interest rates declined people began investing, however many believe that the other parts of Keynesian worked against this intervention.  Things like public works spending.  This created jobs for a time, but did not stimulate any sustainable economic growth.

So why do I believe in Supply side economics? Right now interest rates are at an all time low, but so is saving.   Government cannot lower them anymore than they have to make any impact, yet debt is at an all time high.   This was a HUGE mistake of Greenspan during the late 90′s and early 00′s because he didn’t actually move the interest rates up that much during the .com boom and the housing boom. This would have stabilized the bubble (people would not have gotten so many houses they could not afford) and we probably would not have had the housing crisis of 07-08.

But that crisis happened and is still happening and now the government idea is to stimulate through their own spending and tax the bajesus out of the rich. OK. So, explain where the money will get injected back into the economy by taxing those who provide jobs for others?  Can you explain that?

The idea that government systems can stimulate or help the economy is utter non-sense.  What it can do, however, is use an over abundance to help those who have nothing.

This is just a partial answer so you know.

I also want you to understand that Economic’s is alot like Psychology.  No one therapy works for all people, and no one economic policy works for all countries.  It also is not a hard science, and it changes as social climates change.

I believe we always have to be careful in allowing to much governmental control (but we need governmental regulation).  Constitutions can be broken.

Good book on this is called Empire by Orson Scott Card.  It’s a fictional look into one man’s desire to rule the Richest country in the World. And he uses both sides to do it.

Now, what about the little guy?  Maybe I will write something on that as well.

True? Bibleness

While I was in College, I was a member, and leader in the Baptist Student Union. During that time I spent alot of my time judging whether other’s theology, lifestyle, and person stood up to the bar that I believed Jesus set.  In that time, I was unhappy, depressed, and without direction, but I wasn’t sexually active, never smoked or drank, and goodness me, wasn’t cursing. I was very sure of what I believed, and I was an idealog by ANYone’s standard. I was angry and I made sure people knew it.

My friends and I (all philosophy minors or majors) would sit around and talk about the Bible alot of course.  In one of those get togethers a good friend of mine saying “John 3:16 is the most important scripture in the Bible, and everything else is a footnote.”  Which, at that point I agreed and added that I believed that Romans 10:9 is more specific to that.  And then… went on judging the theology of others anyway.

Of course alot of my adherance to those beliefs has fallen away over the years for many reasons.  One is, as I began to read the Bible holistically seeing a God through out the years that cared little for sin but a whole lot for humanity (which I believe fundementalism reverses).  Another is, that I started to see how my belief in “True Christianity” was actually in “Mike’s Infallible understanding of Scripture”.  It’s interesting to me that as I started to see my own fallen state years after I had became a Christian I began to question my own belief system and actually left the church.  I tetered between agnostism, diesm, and a strange mystical christianity for a time.

The main reason, however, was because I felt no better.  I don’t mean that I wanted to be a shiny happy person holding hands, or expected God to make me better.  I just didn’t see a better man.  Honestly, I didn’t see any Christians who were better men.  I saw either shells of happiness , or I saw people, like me, who hated themselves.  Whether in the church or not in the church.

My re-entry into the church is another story, but my blog is prompted by the idea that I once held in my head as “True Christianity” and how that has changed.  Here are a few things that I believe about true Christianity and the verses that support them:

1.  “True Christianity” exists. (Titus 1)

2. I cannot know “True Christianity” completely:

Psalm 53

For the director of music. According to mahalath. A maskil of David. ^[a][b]

1 The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 God looks down from heaven
on the sons of men
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.

3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

3. My knowledge can “Puff” me up and make me THINK I know but love makes me “known” and I should NOT allow my knowledge make others stumble. (1 Cor 8)

4. Knowledge has great importance, should create unity, and should be shown in how we live (especially in being slow to anger, not spreading rumors, curbing sexual desires to where they are supposed to be ect) (Ephesians 4).

5. Knowledge does not bring, Grace, or any of the fruits of the spirit. Just look at the pharasees.  What fruits did they produce.  Then to the apostles who where in fact, fishermen.

I believe that Ephesians 4 summerizes exactly why we are all different, and why we need each other so desprately:

Ephesians 4

Unity in the Body of Christ

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it^[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.”^[b] 9(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions^[c]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Living as Children of Light

17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.

20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26″In your anger do not sin”^[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Here is my “snub”, ok… my little peave with the way that I used to live, and still see others live.  When you say things like “True Christianity” your really saying “I have the truth, and you don’t, and until you believe as I do, in all ways you can’t be a true Christian”.  Now… that may not be what you INTEND to say, but I can say that anyone that doesn’t think like you at the time of reading your post, will agree with me.  The reason?  It sets an absolute.  And that absolute isn’t Jesus.  It’s you and your knowledge of Jesus.  The word “True” means “Right” and the word “Christianity” means your Christianity.

When I look at my beliefs from this perspective, and I think about uttering “True Christianity” I feel I am not following this very chapter in the Book I hold so dear.  How can one “2Be completely humble and gentle; and be assuminng ones understanding as being the only “True Christianity” how can one listen to anothers belief system and “be patient, bearing with one another in love.” when one believes that they have “True Christianity”.  But the one that really kicks me in the ”Jimmy” is how can I  ”3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace…” when my very words assume that I have the truth and you don’t. How does one keep at peace when these things happen.

This lie of “True Christianity” may seem pretty incuous now, but the fighting that still occurs in Ireland, directly relates to this idea.  After seeing the movie The other Boliegn Girl I read about how much of the UK fought viscously about a difference in theology, something that actually Martin Luther did not want. He never wanted to seperate the church but reform it, yet much of the wars in the following centuries had ties to theological differences.  He wanted to talk. He wanted to listen.  He wanted unity.  He got war.

Now, the Strawman to all of this (Strawmen are arguments based on something I didn’t say) is that I am not saying there IS NOT “True Christianity” and I am not even saying that yours, or mine isn’t such a thing.  What I am saying is that stating that you have it, and I don’t, doesn’t create a world for discussion, but puts anyone who believes they know Christ and doesn’t agree with you in defence mode, not in lets talk about faith (baby) mode.

In short, I would say that though I believe I do know what “True Christianity” feels like, does to a person, and how that looks like, I honestly can’t say that I know what it is down pat.  I am open for discussion though I believe that some of those discussions won’t lead anywhere, there is still in my head the idea that if the discussion is left on the table I have a better chance at having a conversation, then stating that I know what God trully wants for everyone.  Becuase, in the end, it’s not about me and my religion.  It’s about fighting for the hearts of others.  Being a sacrifice so that others can see who Christ was, and who he can be to them. In the end, it’s about my actions and little about my words.  That… is what I believe is true Christianity.

But I could be wrong. 

Blessings,

Mike

Do I have it?

Do I have what it takes?

Do I have what it takes?

To break down these walls?

To fight the fight?

To walk through these halls?

To stand in the shadow?

To experience the death?

To watch those around me,

Take thier last breath?

To stand on the shores,

Without doubt or shame?

Knowing my listing,

Without dumping the blame?

Can I be the man,

That stands before the gates?

Beating down the walls,

While still knowing the stakes?

Can I bear the burden,

Of my own Pilgrim’s Regress?

Or will I find I don’t have the time,

To take the needed rest?

To fall into the hands,

To lean on the hope,

That I can’t do it,

That my fires must be stoked.

That there are still plans,

To lay down my lies.

All while my burdens,

Become riddles with flies.

And I forget that my joy

Never escaped what I carry,

By trying to hold up others,

Because they are weary.

I ask the creator of all,

To tell me the truth,

Do I lie to myself,

To stand without proof.

Do I have the shimering,

Within the depths of my mind,

Do I still hold the key,

To the image divine.

Read more: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=13158520#ixzz0u2R6CRi5

Tonight

Tonight.

For months it seems,

Our heart have been open books.

Looking in, opening up,

No hiding behind empty looks.

We have stood in and took on burdens,

We have found many wounds,

We have felt the pain of honesty,

and grieved the lies of swoon.

But I am tired of this now,

Of bearing these old shames.

I want to enjoy the joy you bring,

And play our silly games.

I want to seek the adventures,

Laugh as loud as is our way,

Walk with in the sunlight,

Even though you can’t stay

Our situation stays the same,

It sucks the skin from my soul,

But in the moments that we get together,

Divine gravity makes us whole.

I can’t wait for life to move forward,

Yet fears scar my light.

But alas, I have this privilege,

Of seeing you tonight.

Read more: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=13158520#ixzz0u2QLDjDJ

A reposting.

I am moving my blogs over from Myspace over to here, so you will probably see lot of repostings.  I hope I can pull the dates as well as the crazy rantings of a mad man.

Thanks!